So he brought them some meat. So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. JAD: It was curling each time when it ROBERT: Every time. JENNIFER FRAZER: This all has a history, of course. Wait a second. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: And I am a science writer. We went to the Bronx, and when we went up there, we -- there was this tall man waiting for us. ROBERT: Sounds, yeah. Charts. And so I don't have a problem with that. I don't really need it all right now. This assignment pairs with the RadioLab podcast; specifically the Smarty Plants episode. It's not leaking. They run out of energy. Gebel. I think you can be open-minded but still objective. Sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh. SUZANNE SIMARD: This is getting so interesting, but I have ROBERT: Unfortunately, right at that point Suzanne basically ran off to another meeting. ROBERT: She says a timber company would move in and clear cut an entire patch of forest, and then plant some new trees. ROBERT: So we strapped in our mimosa plant. Picture one of those parachute drops that they have at the -- at state fairs or amusement parks where you're hoisted up to the top. And again. ROBERT: But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? PETER LANDGREN: Look at that. Can the tree feel you ripping the roots out like that? Just a boring set of twigs. ROBERT: And then she waited a few more days and came back. And it's good it was Sunday. They curve, sometimes they branch. And then they did experiments with the same fungus that I'm telling you about that was capturing the springtails, and they hooked it up to a tree. And I remember it was Sunday, because I started screaming in my lab. And so of course, that was only the beginning. ROBERT: Well of course, there could be a whole -- any number of reasons why, you know, one tree's affected by another. ROBERT: And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. ROBERT: There's -- on the science side, there's a real suspicion of anything that's anthropomorphizing a plant. Yeah. How does it know which way to turn and grow its roots so that it can find the water? Radiolab - Smarty Plants. ROBERT: Fan, light, lean. ROBERT: She says we now know that trees give each other loans. And after not a whole lot of drops the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. Pulled out a is that a root of some sort? Okay? I mean, this is going places. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. ROBERT: She says the tree can only suck up what it needs through these -- mostly through the teeny tips of its roots, and that's not enough bandwidth. And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". MONICA GAGLIANO: Light is obviously representing dinner. Again. JENNIFER FRAZER: Into which she put these sensitive plants. We dropped. MONICA GAGLIANO: Would the plant do the same? I mean, to say that a plant is choosing a direction, I don't know. But they do have root hairs. It's almost as if these plants -- it's almost as if they know where our pipes are. JENNIFER FRAZER: Plants are really underrated. And when they go in SUZANNE SIMARD: There is Jigs at the bottom of the outhouse, probably six feet down at the bottom of the outhouse pit. SUZANNE SIMARD: They start producing chemicals that taste really bad. ROBERT: What happened to you didn't happen to us. Just the sound of it? ROBERT: So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes MONICA GAGLIANO: All sorts of randomness. JENNIFER FRAZER: I am the blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? And then those little tubes will wrap themselves into place. ROBERT: So you're like a metaphor cop with a melty heart. Well, maybe. Inspector Tail is his name. And she says she began to notice things that, you know, one wouldn't really expect. Me first. ROBERT: She took that notion out of the garden into her laboratory. ROBERT: Could a plant learn to associate something totally random like a bell with something it wanted, like food? ROBERT: Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. It's condensation. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. A forest can feel like a place of great stillness and quiet. Hopefully I tied that into cannabis well enough to not get removed. JENNIFER FRAZER: Right? You have a forest, you have mushrooms. They look just like mining tunnels. It would be all random. All right. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. I'm sorry? Well, some of them can first of all, and big deal. Thud. JAD: But still. This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. No question there. ROBERT: But she's got a little red headlamp on. They'd remember straight away. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? 00:34:54 - Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? Jun 3, 2019 - In our Animal Minds episode, we met a group of divers who rescued a humpback whale, then shared a really incredible moment.a moment in which the divers are convinced that the whale . Would they stay in the tree, or would they go down to the roots? ROBERT: Five, four, three, two, one, drop! ROBERT: That is correct. And so I don't have a problem with that. St. Andrew's Magazine Dr. Aatish Bhatia Inspires Students & Faculty. Do you have the lens? And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? 2016. No. And if you don't have one, by default you can't do much in general. JENNIFER FRAZER: And his idea was to see if he could condition these dogs to associate that food would be coming from the sound of a bell. And does it change my place in the world? So the -- this branching pot thing. JENNIFER FRAZER: An anti-predator reaction? So here's what she did. SUZANNE SIMARD: He'd fallen in. Both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction, and the pea plant leans toward them. He's looking up at us quite scared and very unhappy that he was covered in And toilet paper. The idea was to drop them again just to see, like, the difference between the first time you learn something and the next time. Image credits: Photo Credit: Flickred! ROBERT: She says what will happen under the ground is that the fungal tubes will stretch up toward the tree roots, and then they'll tell the tree SUZANNE SIMARD: With their chemical language. ROBERT: So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. Yeah, it might run out of fuel. JENNIFER FRAZER: It is! You need the nutrients that are in the soil. Hey, it's okay. And she says this time they relaxed almost immediately. SUZANNE SIMARD: We're sitting on the exposed root system, which is like -- it is like a mat. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like a defensive mechanism. MONICA GAGLIANO: I don't know. ROBERT: So the deer's like, "Oh, well. ROBERT: And on this particular day, she's with the whole family. It's definitely crazy. Exactly. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: This is Jennifer Frazer, and I'm a freelance science writer and blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. Gone. No. LARRY UBELL: Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. ROBERT: So it's not that it couldn't fold up, it's just that during the dropping, it learned that it didn't need to. ROBERT: Okay. ROBERT: But that scientist I mentioned MONICA GAGLIANO: My name is Monica Gagliano. Every time. I mean, what? The Ubells see this happening all the time. I'm a research associate professor at the University of Sydney. ROBERT: So these trees were basically covered with bags that were then filled with radioactive gas. And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. I don't know. And the tubes branch and sometimes they reconnect. Yeah, I know. Seasonally. On our knees with our noses in the ground, and we can't see anything. Well, I have one thing just out of curiosity As we were winding up with our home inspectors, Alvin and Larry Ubell, we thought maybe we should run this metaphor idea by them. ROBERT: I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. It's yours." Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. ROBERT: So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. OUR PODCASTSSUPPORT US Smarty Plants LISTEN Download February 13, 2018 ( Robert Krulwich This -- this actually happened to me. JENNIFER FRAZER: Well, maybe. Yeah. So the -- this branching pot thing. Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". So we're really -- like this is -- we're really at the very beginning of this. Robert, I have -- you know what? We dropped. So if a beetle were to invade the forest, the trees tell the next tree over, "Here come the --" like Paul Revere, sort of? I think there are some cases where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results. Well, you can see the white stuff is the fungus. They can go north, south, east, west, whatever. Because the only reason why the experiment turned out to be 28 days is because I ran out of time. I don't know if you're a bank or if you're an -- so it's not necessarily saying, "Give it to the new guy." ROY HALLING: Well, you can see the white stuff is the fungus. And so why is that? However, if that's all they had was carbon ROBERT: That's Roy again. ROBERT: When people first began thinking about these things, and we're talking in the late 1800s, they had no idea what they were or what they did, but ultimately they figured out that these things were very ancient, because if you look at 400-million-year-old fossils of some of the very first plants JENNIFER FRAZER: You can see, even in the roots of these earliest land plants JENNIFER FRAZER: This is a really ancient association. And the idea was, she wanted to know like, once the radioactive particles were in the tree, what happens next? So just give me some birds. They're not experiencing extra changes, for example. So just give me some birds. And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. 526; 4 years ago; Smarty Plants by Radiolab. They designed from scratch a towering parachute drop in blue translucent Lego pieces. Never mind. ROBERT: So the plants are now, you know, buckled in, minding their own business. Wait a second. But when we look at the below ground structure, it looks so much like a brain physically, and now that we're starting to understand how it works, we're going, wow, there's so many parallels. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. Thanks to Jennifer Frazer who helped us make sense of all this. That's the place where I can remember things. SUZANNE SIMARD: And so in this particular summer when the event with Jigs happened ROBERT: What kind of dog is Jigs, by the way? It's a family business. JAD: The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. Different kind of signal traveling through the soil? ROBERT: Then of course because it's the BBC, they take a picture of it. We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. AATISH BHATIA: So this is our plant dropper. No. ALVIN UBELL: Testing one, two. But I wonder if her using these metaphors is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. To try to calculate how much springtail nitrogen is traveling back to the tree. He's holding his hand maybe a foot off the ground. Or even learn? And we dropped it once, and twice. And again. MONICA GAGLIANO: Pretty much like the concept of Pavlov with his dog applied. They have to -- have to edit in this together. But she had a kind of, maybe call it a Jigs-ian recollection. It's an integral part of DNA. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. Fan, light, lean. ROBERT: So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso! ROBERT: So the roots can go either left or to the right. [ROY HALLING: This is Roy Halling, researcher specializing in fungi at the New York Botanical Garden. Here's the water.". ROBERT: And then she waited a few more days and came back. 2018. SUZANNE SIMARD: There's an enemy in the midst. And so they have this trading system with trees. ROBERT: And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. So I don't have a problem. JAD: The thing I don't get is in animals, the hairs in our ear are sending the signals to a brain and that is what chooses what to do. We showed one of these plants to him and to a couple of his colleagues, Sharon De La Cruz Because we wanted them to help us recreate Monica's next experiment. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org]. So its resources, its legacy will move into the mycorrhizal network into neighboring trees. And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. Give it to the new -- well, that's what she saying. It's almost as if these plants -- it's almost as if they know where our pipes are. But the Ubells have noticed that even if a tree is 10 or 20, 30 yards away from the water pipe, for some reason the tree roots creep with uncanny regularity straight toward the water pipe. And to me, here are three more reasons that you can say, "No, really! Exactly. ROBERT: And it's in that little space between them that they make the exchange. 2016. ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? So we know that Douglas fir will take -- a dying Douglas fir will send carbon to a neighboring Ponderosa pine. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, plants really like light, you know? ALVIN UBELL: And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. No, Summer is a real person and her last name happens to be spelled R-A-Y-N-E. ANNIE: But I wonder if her using these metaphors ANNIE: is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. ALVIN UBELL: The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. And on this particular day, she's with the whole family. Smarty Plants Radiolab | Last.fm Read about Smarty Plants by Radiolab and see the artwork, lyrics and similar artists. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. And when you measure them, like one study we saw found up to seven miles of this little threading What is this thing? It was summertime. In 1997, a couple of scientists wrote a paper which describes how fungi JENNIFER FRAZER: Have developed a system for mining. ROBERT: A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. ROBERT: What happened to you didn't happen to us. ROBERT: What do you mean? And so we are under the impression or I would say the conviction that the brain is the center of the universe, and -- and if you have a brain and a nervous system you are good and you can do amazing stuff. And she goes on to argue that had we been a little bit more steady and a little bit more consistent, the plants would have learned and would have remembered the lesson. Yeah. You give me -- like, I want wind, birds, chipmunks JAD: Like, I'm not, like, your sound puppet here. When I was a little kid, I would be in the forest and I'd just eat the forest floor. JENNIFER FRAZER: They're called springtails, because a lot of them have a little organ on the back that they actually can kind of like deploy and suddenly -- boing! Wait a second. The problem is is with plants. let's do it! JENNIFER FRAZER: The fungus has this incredible network of tubes that it's able to send out through the soil, and draw up water and mineral nutrients that the tree needs. Like, two percent or 0.00000001 percent? Couple minutes go by SUZANNE SIMARD: And all of a sudden we could hear this barking and yelping. It's not leaking. The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. ALVIN UBELL: They would have to have some ROBERT: Maybe there's some kind of signal? But the drop was just shocking and sudden enough for the little plant to Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. Like what she saw in the outhouse? ROBERT: Monica says what she does do is move around the world with a general feeling of ROBERT: What if? It's time -- time for us to go and lie down on the soft forest floor. Isn't -- doesn't -- don't professors begin to start falling out of chairs when that word gets used regarding plants? ROBERT: Isn't that what you do? ROBERT: And her family included a dog named Jigs. The glass is not broken. Yeah, I know. So we're really -- like this is -- we're really at the very beginning of this. Smarty Plants. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso! ], [ROY HALLING: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. ROBERT: What do mean, the fungi will give me my sugar back? Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, tested it in my lab. I can scream my head off if I want to. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. And I need a bird, a lot of birds, actually. ROBERT: Begins with a woman. No question there. It is like a bank! One tree goes "Uh-oh." And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. LINCOLN TAIZ: I think you can be open-minded but still objective. That's okay. And Roy by the way, comes out with this strange -- it's like a rake. It didn't seem to be learning anything. They designed from scratch a towering parachute drop in blue translucent Lego pieces. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. They can also send warning signals through the fungus. And so I designed this experiment to figure that out. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. ROBERT: So we strapped in our mimosa plant. And so I was really excited. So I don't have a problem. Like, if you put food into one tree over here, it would end up in another tree maybe 30 feet away over there, and then a third tree over here, and then a fourth tree over there, and a fifth tree over there. People speculated about this, but no one had actually proved it in nature in the woods until Suzanne shows up. I think there are some cases where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results. Like the bell for the dog. Because the only reason why the experiment turned out to be 28 days is because I ran out of time. And he starts digging with his rake at the base of this tree. So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. So he brought them some meat. So actually, I think you were very successful with your experiment. They need light to grow. So you can get -- anybody can get one of these plants, and we did. She took that notion out of the garden into her laboratory. If the -- if the tube system is giving the trees the minerals, how is it getting it, the minerals? He gives us a magnifying glass. So you -- if you would take away the fish, the trees would be, like, blitzed. Why is this network even there? ROBERT: Okay. Her use of metaphor. Picasso! They may have this intelligence, maybe we're just not smart enough yet to figure it out. Yes. ROBERT: So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? ROBERT: So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. It was like -- it was like a huge network. He's not a huge fan of. So what does the tree do? She says the tree can only suck up what it needs through these -- mostly through the teeny tips of its roots, and that's not enough bandwidth. Like so -- and I think that, you know, the whole forest then, there's an intelligence there that's beyond just the species. Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. Then he would bring them the meat and he would ring a bell. That was my reaction. In the podcast episode Smarty Plants, the hosts talk about whether or not you need a brain to sense the world around you; they shared a few different anecdotes, . So we went back to Monica. They're all out in the forest. ROBERT: I'm not gonna tell you. -- they spring way up high in the air. SUZANNE SIMARD: Jigs had provided this incredible window for me, you know, in this digging escapade to see how many different colors they were, how many different shapes there were, that they were so intertwined. /locations/california/culver-city/5399-sepulveda-blvd-bank-atm/ Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, wedig into the work of evolutionaryecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns ourbrain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. They still remembered. Nothing delicious at all.". JENNIFER FRAZER: Finally, one time he did not bring the meat, but he rang the bell. I mean, I -- it's a kind of Romanticism, I think. And if you just touch it ROBERT: You can actually watch this cascade ROBERT: Where all the leaves close in, like do do do do do do. Like the bell for the dog. ROBERT: No, I -- we kept switching rooms because we weren't sure whether you want it to be in the high light or weak light or some light or no light. It's yours." I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans We are a little obsessed with the brain. Support Radiolab today at Radiolab.org/donate. ROBERT: And some of them, this is Lincoln Taiz LINCOLN TAIZ: I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. Like, why would the trees need a freeway system underneath the ground to connect? This is the plant and pipe mystery. So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dog is expecting. SUZANNE SIMARD: And so I designed this experiment to figure that out. ROBERT: She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was MONICA GAGLIANO: A little fan. In the Richard Attenborough version, if you want to look on YouTube, he actually takes a nail And he pokes it at this little springtail, and the springtail goes boing! The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah. ROBERT: So let's go to the first. Monica thought about that and designed a different experiment. SUZANNE SIMARD: It'll go, "Ick. Just for example. And it can reach these little packets of minerals and mine them. The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. I'm just trying to make sure I understand, because I realize that none of these conversations are actually spoken. And after not a whole lot of drops, the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. Like, the plant is hunting? That's what she says. 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